The Last Western Heretic – Lloyd Geering part1

Added on September 8, 2010 25 comments

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A documentary about the New Zealand theologian Lloyd George Geering. Broadcast on TVNZ 12 Jan 2008. Part 1 – Introduction Watch the whole thing here: nz.youtube.com Geering is Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at Victoria University, Wellington. He holds a DD from the University of Otago, a Masters Degree in Mathematics and was a minister in the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand and turned to theological teaching in 1956. He was tried and found not guilty of heresy in 1967 by the PCANZ. Geering is a controversial commentator on theological issues and considers Christian and Muslim fundamentalism to be a social evil. In 1967 Professor Geering gained a high profile when the Presbyterian Church charged him with heresy for his radical beliefs. During his “trial” he claimed that the remains of Jesus lay somewhere in Palestine, and that the resurrection had been wrongfully interpreted by churches as a resuscitation of the body of Jesus. He also rejects the notion that God is a supernatural being who created and continues to look over the world. He is a member of the Jesus Seminar and a participant in the program Living the Questions, an alternative to the Evangelical Alpha course; he is also a member of the Sea of Faith Network.

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Written by castronic123 about 2 years ago.

religion is an intangeble emotional solice for those who require it.the only thing divinitive about our world is life itself
Written by KincumberBoy about 2 years ago.

He is an academic no doubt. A heretic is someone who steps outside Christian doctrine- the Scriptures . We all have some heretic values. Once it was deemed worthy of execution. I’m glad we don’t do that any longer.

In spite of his academia he is foolish if he thinks he can edit the scriptures to his own taste. 2 Tim 3:16-17 If Christ didn’t rise again, the human race is lost.
Written by KincumberBoy about 2 years ago.

He is an academic no doubt. A heretic is someone who steps outside Christian doctrine- the Scriptures . We all have some heretic values. Once it was deemed worthy of execution. I’m glad we don’t do that any longer.

In spite of his academia he is foolish if he thinks he can edit the scriptures to his own taste. 2 Tim 3:16-17 If Christ didn’t rise again, the human race is lost.
Written by ContactReal about 2 years ago.

who cares about religion for fuck sake, we all die. Religion is the worst thing on this earth, it has cost billions of lives. All religion is, is a placebo.
Written by GnosticAtheist about 2 years ago.

Indeed!
Written by rivertonmuso about 2 years ago.

Just light years ahead of the rest.. Wake up people this guy knows all about the facts
Written by lazyperfectionist1 about 2 years ago.

Heretics are those not backed with a sufficient array of battalions to render them orthodox.
Written by DefenderOfReason about 2 years ago.

What a brilliant mind!
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

“Of course it happens but it was not in protestant teachings” Take history seriously. Calvin, for instance, had so many people killed in Geneva that even Luther said of him With a death sentence they solve all argumentation (see vol 1 of A History of Christian Thought by Juergan Neve).

Also, are you suggesting that it’s okay to disembowel and dismember another human being as long as s/he is a “papist”? So much for the “freedom of conscience” that you wrote “Protestants brought”.
Written by matije7 about 2 years ago.

I was not completely accurate that no catholic was killed because of his faith! Of course it happens but it was not in protestant teachings. Almost all were killed because they were collaborating with papists. i do not need to tell you what was the pope at the time!
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Luther switched to the princes because he doubted the likelihood of a peasant victory. Stop arguing that killing is a fine, Christian thing as long as Protestants are behind it.

Blessed are those who make others mourn.
Blessed are the warmakers.
Blessed are the violent and the invincible, the proud and the powerful, the domineering and oppressive.
Blessed are those who show no mercy.

Does that sound like Christ to you? If today you only knew the things that make for peace.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

“No Catholic was killed because of his religion.” No serious student of history would make such an argument. This isn’t a matter of faith, but fact. Flip through Reformation (Penguin History of the Church) by Owen Chadwick, A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland by William Cobbett, The Pelican History of the Church, volumes 2-4 of Cambridge Modern History, the Oxford History of the Christian Church. I could list more. You’re making a faith argument against history.
Written by matije7 about 2 years ago.

Did the peasants BETRAY Luther first???

Capitalism was proven to be the best but not perfect. Some supplements to capitalism we se in Scandinavian countries that are at high standard.

No Catholic was killed because of his religion. Romish religion was banned because it was militant and very dangerous for England and common wealth.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Read what Luther wrote against the peasents: “Therefore let everyone who can smite, slay and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful or devilish than a rebel. It is just as when one must kill a mad dog.” How is the preaching of brutal violence a Christian thing? Are you saying that it’s ok for Protestants to preach murder but not Catholics? I say that they both have shared in the same heresy by rejecting peace and choosing imperial prestige instead.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Luther sided with the peasents and then BETRAYED them to support wealthy princes

Weber argued that capitalism sprung from Protestantism. Considering the MASSIVE disaprities between rich and poor that capitalism has led to, I hardly consider Protestanism’s role here admirable, much less Biblical.

Catholic “treason” was not accepting the state religion. You can’t love your enemies by killing them, regardless of creed.
Written by matije7 about 2 years ago.

I do not see a reason why you would criticize Luther if you wold not be different. If you think you would you are wrong.

Protestantism have taken the Bible as only authority for faith and it had different effect on society than Catholicism. Read Max Weber on this topic.

Catholics in 16c. England were killed because of treason and not because of their faith. Priests were agitating against the Crown!

Do not mix secular rule and Christian etichs!
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

The heresy of Catholicism was to place secular ambition, power and prestige above the dictates of the gospel (expansions of papal power were more about politics than theology). Such is the heresy of Protestantism as well, and of the Eastern Churches. If you doubt this, take a course on Reformation/Post-Reformation European history. Power, money, control, external belief systems are all death to the gospel They make the Sermon on the Mount/Plain into pretty words that Christians can freely ignore
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

This is a matter of historical record, not faith. Alexander Briant, Edmund Campion, Ralph Sherwin, Ralph Corby, Robert Southwell, Thomas Holland and John Nelson are not even a fraction of the Catholics who found themselves executed, disemboweled and quartered under English-Protestant rule. Their dismembered body parts were often displayed on London bridge. Margaret Clitherow, a mother of three who was caught hiding priests, was stripped naked and crushed to death. Love your enemies indeed.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Finanancial prosperity has NOTHING to do with the kingdom. Jesus was poor and preached a gospel in large part to the poor, whom he called blessed Lk 6:20-26, 12:13-21, 18:18-25 Mt 19:23-24, Mk 10:17-25, Jas 1:10-11, 2:1-7, 5:1-11, etc. As for the “blessing” of English dominion, England split from Rome because Henry VIII wanted a divorce, a divorce so that he could marry a woman whom he later had executed. Further, both Henry and many of his successors brutally persecuted Catholics.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

I’m not criticizing the peasents, I’m criticizing Luthor for supporting them and then later writing a vulgar tract in support of the princes (Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants)

Protestants persecuted other Protestants and Catholics as well. Freedom of conscience came out of the Enlightenement, not the Protestant Reformation

The New Testament books were written by Jews and one Gentile, not Protestants.
Written by matije7 about 2 years ago.

If the secular rulers had not embraced Luther you would have burning stakes even now. Protestantism brought freedom of conscience that Catholic church did not allow.

As for the 16 century German peasants, I would like to know how would you behave!

You do not have an idea what is the product of the New Testament (protestant) ideology! Al protestant majority countries are prosperous and Catholic ones are nothing special. Ireland is blessed because of the English dominion.
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

With all due respect matije7, Protestanism was coopted by poliicians ever faster than Catholicism was (you needn’t further than Luther’s disastorus flip flop over the Peaseants revolt for evidence). It utterly failed to institute a reign of Christian love, and instead led to centuries of bloody wars between Protestants and Catholics, persecution of Catholics by Protestants and vice versa, and violent struggles/persecutions within Protestanism itself Just look at what happened in Lutheran Germany
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Remember all those times in the gospels when Christ walked about teaching the supreme importance of Biblical inerrancy? Oh, wait a minute…
Written by JFMJJ about 2 years ago.

Tell me matije7, do you take Lev 11:10, 19:27, 11:6-8, 19:19 as is? What about Deut 21:18-21, 22:13-21, or Ex 22:25, and Ezekial 18:13 , 117, and 22:12? If you don’t, then you’re not taking the Bible “as it is” at all.
Written by freebanking about 2 years ago.

Thank you for posting this video pppz0r. I am a distant relative of Lloyd Geering from Canada. (He is the spitting image of my dad and grandfather). We have the same nose. I know what I will look like when I am older. I am so glad that he is receiveing the respect he so greatly deserves. He is a great man and honest to a fault. That is the source of his trouble with fundamentalists.

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